The Other Side of Boyhood - Kathy Imabayashi Takes Us Beyond Stereotypes

Intro: 0:01

From empty nest to personal best. Let's fly mom fly. Welcome to the Fly Mom Fly podcast with your Bobbi Chegwyn. As an Aussie mom currently living in the US, with her children now grown and living in Australia, Bobbi is making it her mission to make sure no empty nest mom is left behind and has a supportive community connection, tools, tips and knowledge to rock this phase of life. I know she's anxious to get this podcast going, so here she is.

Bobbi: 0:31

Hey everyone and welcome to another episode of Fly Mom Fly. Our guest today is Cathy Imabayashi, a Canadian nomad with a passion for children and parents. With almost 45 years of experience working with children and raising her son, she brings a wealth of expertise and knowledge. Cathy's advocacy for boys stems from a pivotal moment when she realized the outdated and unacceptable societal reactions towards boys. Motivated by the fear that her own compassionate and empathic son might be judged solely based on his gender, Cathy embarked on a mission to challenge societal expectations and prejudices. In addition to her work with children, Cathy has also faced the challenges of the empty nest phase. She courageously navigated this transition by moving countries and shifting her career focus to ensure a healthy adjustment. Cathy, welcome to the podcast. It's so lovely to have you here.

Kathy: 1:29

Thank you for having me and thanks for the introduction.

Bobbi: 1:32

Oh, that is quite all right. I was really impressed reading your website. You have done so much. You have worked in a variety of different places. Can you share a little bit about your travels around the world and what you've been doing?

Kathy: 1:48

Certainly. I started off in Canada. I left there when I was 30 because I read a book and that book drew me to Japan and I listened to that inner voice telling me it was the right thing to do. I came here and the first time while we were living here was 19 years I met my husband and we had a child. I was the person who was never getting married, never having children, though It was a bit of a shock to me. But again, some things are out of your control. I think. When you're on the right path, everything falls into place, and it was kind of distant for me to have that happen. When our son finished elementary school, we were in the international school here and it's a very small school and I felt it was too small for his personality. So again, it was another sateful meeting that led me to take a job in Beirut, in Lebanon, and the interesting thing about that was that for oh, i don't know almost the entire 19 years that I was in Japan. I'm very sensitive, i'm a highly sensitive person and I stopped watching the noon. So when I called my husband from New York to say I've got this job offer in Beirut, he didn't say but he because he trusted me, but he's always watched the news, so he knew about all the turmoil that had been going on in that country, whereas I had no idea, and with facing my decision totally on the school and on the headmaster who I was in contact with. So we went to Beirut for the next seven years and that was a beautiful experience, just beautiful. When my son left to go to university, he went to Canada to university. He was an only child and he took a big part of our world And as a parent, i think the most difficult thing was to be able to encourage him and let him know that we were okay, so that he wasn't worrying about us either. And that was a challenge. It was a very big challenge for me. So when he left, i knew I had to do something drastic and I don't do anything halfway like full feet. So I put my CV out and I ended up getting a. I decided to move into administration, but because I hadn't done that before, because I knew it would take up a lot of time and energy and I wanted that extra time and energy for raising ourselves, so I started applying for administration jobs in education. I got a lovely job in Bangkok And we moved there for two years and I thought that was going to last forever. We thought we'd stay there. It was wonderful And that wasn't meant to be. And so after two years, again I send out my CV and I got another very interesting position as a elementary principal in a dual track international school in Tbilisi, georgia, and that was a very different cultural experience, but interesting. In that first year I had an opportunity to go to Doha and start a school And I was very, very lucky that my the boss in Tbilisi was sympathetic to this. It seemed like that dream job like, and it was being handed to me on the silver platter, and she agreed to support that choice, and so I left after one year, went to Doha and started this school, and that turned out to be a bit of a nightmare. I met a lot of people in leadership roles that I thought holy smokes. I'm glad that I spent most of my career in the classroom. We didn't have to deal with that. So that only lasted a year and I was ready to pull the plug after that because it had been too many challenging situations, but we decided to try one more time. It wasn't quite time to retire. So it ended up I was having to make a choice between taking a job in Tokyo or in Moscow, and the adventuresome part of me was thinking I'd like to try Russia, let's go there. And the practical part of me said, no, cool your jets and be a little more realistic with this one. So ended up taking a job for three years in Tokyo and starting up not starting up like over an international preschool and reestablished it When that was over again, administrative things that I couldn't quite. I'm in the field of education, not in the field of business, and leadership was just getting too much into business. So I left there and went back to a school, an international school, that was not for profit, like that seemed to be where I had gone off the track a little bit. And so I went to Hiroshima for two years and was the vice principal there. When that was over it was kind of like okay, i'm done, that's enough of working for other people. And we retired. What part of Japan are you in? Like I'm in the boonies, i see more wildlife than I do people, and it's in the southwestern part, it's on the island of Kyushu. The closest city is Fukuoka And that's where I was for the first 19 years. That's my husband. It's from this area as well. So we moved back here And the most important thing for me to do at that time was I had a burning desire to I write and I knew in this this was kind of like third chapter in my life story And before I moved on to whatever that was going to look like, i had decided a few years before that and had started to write a book a few years before that. But I wanted to write a book for my son. I wanted to tell him everything that was in my heart, remind him of the things that were really important, and so that he would have something, when I wasn't here, that will get him through some of life's challenges. So the first six months I ended up doing that And it was like, okay, we've had a great life and we'd have had a lot of adventures, but we do not have the security that people have that have worked in a company for 40 years and then have a beautiful pension. So it was kind of thinking, well, okay, i need to bring some kind of supplementary income in. And there was one thought that was okay, i can teach English, because that's just, i'm lucky that I was born a native English speaker and there's always a demand. And then that just didn't fit right. It's like, okay, this is the third chapter, Why change? And I thought, okay, all I really want to do is continue on this mission of helping make the world a little bit better for males, for our little boys, for the relationship that we have as females with male, and to support parent, because there's just not enough support and there's not enough understanding of the differences between raising a boy and making a girl.

Bobbi: 9:54

It just made me think when I was reading your website. You talk about that defining moment where you realized you had a certain perception of boys. And is that the way the world thinks? Telling that story for our listeners, and how that was a turning point for you Well, I would have classified myself as being very open-minded and very aware of gender stereotypes.

Kathy: 10:21

I worked in a daycare for six years. That was very neutral at that time. That was the late 70s, early 80s And it was very neutral at that. That was the thing at the time And I thought I was really aware So when this happened. So I took my son fishing he was three or four and, in Japan, very safe At that time. I had moved from early years to my area and I had moved up into Upper Elementary so I was teaching grade four or five, six at that time. We were down a little path a little bit off the road by a little stream. It was just beautiful and we're really fishing, but he had his plastic fishing rod. We were having a lovely time. I saw a group, which in my mind translated into gang of five or six boys and they were a little bit bigger. Their bodies were they weren't full growing men, but they were a little bit bigger and they started to come down the path And before I could know who they were or what this was all about, i had this really guttural, instinctive feeling of fear, total fear, and this real protective thing like how am I going to protect my son and myself. There's a gang of guys coming down, maybe they're going to hurt us, and that, of course. When they came down, i was like, oh God, this is the same age group that I'm teaching. I, of all people, should have known better that, of course, this is the summer, that their bodies grow big and they still got these little hearts and they're inside, and I should have known better, more than any other person. So we ended up having a great day together. They spent a few hours with us, we had a lot of fun, and that could have been it. But I'm also, besides being kind of sensitive, i'm very analytical and I think things to death, and that night I couldn't let it go. It was like that wasn't me. I know better than to react that way and it just it ate me up truly. I lost sleep over that one, and it was when I started to think my little guy is three or four years old right now. So when you know, in 10 years time or 15 years time or 20 years time, regardless of what kind of a little boy or a big boy or a young man he is, is someone going to react to him in fear and negatively, simply because he's a boy And that just did not sit with me at all. And that's where it all started.

Bobbi: 13:07

So how would you you mentioned that you had this guttural feeling How would you say that you could separate if you are stereotyping a group or your guts telling you there is something wrong? Is there a way that you have found that? oh hang on, this is just my own prejudice, or I really need to remove myself from a situation?

Kathy: 13:32

I think it's really. the first thing is all about awareness. So I wasn't aware of my own unconscious mindset. So I am very aware of my instincts and my intuition and I follow that religiously. So I think how you distinguish between the two is that you are aware, and if you are aware of what your own unconscious gender biases are, then you know when it's that and you also know when your inner self is telling you a different story. I think it's very distinctive.

Bobbi: 14:16

Yeah, yeah, that actually makes total sense that you need to do a little bit of self-inventory with what your biases are and learn about your reactions when you're not necessarily in a dangerous or threatening situation. And, like you said, you did some self-analysing. Why did I think that? Oh okay, so that's my automatic go-to And how could it be different? So I love that you do this, investigating, separating your way from always, or one possibility from all possibilities, so that's really quite powerful. So it led you into deciding to work with parents who have boys. How did that come into play?

Kathy: 15:02

I love to learn and I love to read, so that was the automatic route that I was going to take, and one of the very first books that I read was called Real Boys by Dr William Polan, and that was the first time I heard the term the boy called and all these different parts of gender differences that I had not been aware of. That was the book that started it, and at the end of the book he said okay, if you've gotten something out of this now, you are responsible to share this with other people, so that, more so, the word spread And I took that quite literally And that was it. I started doing workshops and reading more and learning more, and it very much impacted my teaching as well, because that had always been like. I resonated with the little boys, but I didn't quite know why. It seemed to work well with us, where, i would say, the majority, especially in the early years in elementary the majority of teachers would prefer to have a classroom of girls than a handful of boys in there. Is that?

Bobbi: 16:13

because boys are louder or more physical. Why do you think women or female teachers want girls over boys?

Kathy: 16:22

Because I think the educational system is geared more to how girls prefer to learn. I think the educational system puts boys at a disadvantage because they are a different type of learner. I think boys should start school between one and two years later than girls do. In the classroom there should be much more activity, much more hands-on work. There should be an awareness of how little boys are so strongly impacted by any embarrassing or shameful situations, like there are so many things. Part of it is awareness and part of it is simply the institution as it is. It's not the best it could be for little boys.

Bobbi: 17:09

How do boys learn differently from?

Kathy: 17:12

girls. They really like to work collaboratively and you have to be careful about how you do that. They like to move, they like to touch, they like to do projects. I remember I'd read something and it was quite. it said a lot. They were talking about young children, like early years children, and everyone gets the piece of paper. and the teacher said draw a picture. All the little girls are drawing these lovely the house, the mom, the dad, the car, the flowers that you use, the sun. The teacher goes over and she's my teacher and oh, what a beautiful picture. Right next to her there's a little three or four-year-old boy. He's got his blue crayon and he's just going wild in these circles. The teacher kind of looks at oh, maybe you could add a son there, or maybe you could add your mom and dad or like all this, trying to be very encouraging. But the thing of it is that in general little girls, they say, draw nouns and little boys draw verbs. If that teacher just sat down for one second and said tell me the story that you just draw, this kid would probably come up with the most incredible story about aliens and spaceships and rockets going and there's something there. It's just that we're not seeing that because it's not the same way that girls do.

Bobbi: 18:39

Right, right. And so the parents that come to you you said you do workshops Do you also provide one-on-one assistance?

Kathy: 18:48

Well, Oh, okay, okay, you know like sometimes people will come to the workshop or, you know, get on the website or read some of my stuff and be interested and they want to learn more. So you know that usually isn't when they go for the one-on-one coaching, but they might go for a course or something for a little further, a little deeper understanding. Usually, people who reach out for coaching they're having some crisis, basically, And they've tried everything that they know how to do. They're usually mostly the parents that I've worked with are very intentional parents. They, you know, they've read all the books, they've tried all the things and they're at their wit's end And so a lot of the coaching is parenting in general, parenting boys in particular. So it's and for many of the parents that I do work with, it seems like a majority of them are followed kind of my own pattern. So they're often in bicultural marriages, they're living in an ex-pat in some place, and so they don't have the support system that they would have if they were in a you know place that they'd grown up and have all their extended family. So those are usually the parents who reach out.

Bobbi: 20:12

What do you think the biggest misconception is that society as a whole has about raising boys?

Kathy: 20:19

That it's the same as raising girls and that, as women, we are raising our son through our lens.

Bobbi: 20:48

What sort of things would we have to look for if we wanted to see more of our child, not through our own filters? How would one go about doing that?

Kathy: 20:58

The first step is really awareness. It's like it's like you take the filter off and really see, start to see things from your son's point of view. So you take a little boy who has a very strong attachment with his mom and all of a sudden he is sent off to school And you know, there's, there's the initial, there's the kind of, you know, encouragement, support, that kind of thing. But within a very short period of time it's kind of like you know, come on, you know you can do this, it's time for you, you're a big boy, you know, suck it up, buttercup kind of thing. And that message starts to be, starts to come in from a variety of sources, and so they're on the playground, they get hurt and some of them says, oh, you're fine, or there's a little scuffle and it's like, you know, oh well, not not too much of a response, because that's the way boys are. So some of these messages that your little guy is starting to internalize are conflicting with how we really feel. Like if he falls down, he falls down and he starts, he wants to cry And that's the natural thing for him to do, but if you know, the people in his environment are kind of letting him know that it's not okay for him to cry because he's a boy, then he has to, you know, push down those emotions and put on, you know, a mouth, start to adapt to what the expectations are so that he can fit in.

Bobbi: 22:31

Is there a special way to communicate with boys? I'm asking this So I have two daughters, so I've never raised a son, so this is. It's all a little bit foreign to me. I'm guessing that there's a different way to approach a conversation and drawing out information from a boy than there is for a girl. I know my own two daughters were very chatty and very forthcoming. Am I right in guessing that boys, it takes a little bit of care to allow them to open up more and really share what they're feeling?

Kathy: 23:09

Yes, The communication is different. Boys are often and I think it's important to say this is a spectrum, like it's not all boys are this way or all girls are this way. It's a wide range. But in general And there is discussion about whether this is nature or nurture kind of. You know, because there is research that we do speak more, people speak more to female baggings than they do to boy babies. There is a difference in how they're treated. So whether boys don't communicate emotionally as well as girls do, because of that or because of different physiological things, you know, i can't give you an answer to that, but it is different. So girls will they like to eye to eye and that they want to be looking at you. You talk about things and you know, then you get over your problem. Boys are often much more comfortable shoulder to shoulder. Yeah Well, and every teacher should know that. you know, like you should know, that. So they prefer side to side. They They don't need or they don't respond to well to too many words. It's kind of it's just they don't. They don't respond as well to that Whereas. So if you and I have a problem, i want to have a conversation right now. I want to clear the air. We're going to sit down, we're going to have a good talk and get over it. If I have conflict with my husband and I use the same approach, i'm going to come up with some strong resistance. On the flip side, if I say to him, i'm having a real difficulty with this, whatever the situation was, and I need to talk about it. So tomorrow after dinner, let's sit down and have a conversation. When I give that heads up, the chances of it being a successful conversation are really high. So it's the same with the little boys at school. Because of being the principal, i always got and it was like 90% of the time it was the little boys who would end up getting sent to my office, and if I tried to have a conversation after as soon as they came into the office, it was going nowhere, like there was no point in even trying to get there. But if I could respect those differences and so they would command, it would have been some emotional thing that has happened on the playground usually, and so they would be worked up. They would be embarrassed because they were sent to the principal's office, so their emotions would be explosive. So when they would come in. I would have them sit down, i'd make sure they had some water And I would give them a paper and a piece of paper and sorry, a paper and something to write with. And I would go and sit on the other side of the room and just say, please write down what happened. And I would go to where I was and I would be if I was really working or pretending to work, i don't know, but I wouldn't talk. And giving that space, like there's a phrase that they use, it's called time silence. But giving boys that time after an explosive situation to be able to calm their bodies down, to be able to start to regulate a little bit again, that it lets you be able to have a conversation, to communicate. But until they've been able to do that, they can't. It's futile to try to have something constructive happen when it's hot off the press kind of thing. You have to give that to them. And then the best conversations that I have ever had after an explosive situation is if so, i will read the paper and I might say well, please try this part again, because, whatever the reason, i would get to the point where it was clarified the facts of what happened, and then the best conversations would be if it was possible for me to say, okay, let's get up, and if we walked around the playground side by side and then I could say, so, tell me about it. And he would talk as we're moving. It's not threatening, it's, you know, we're on the same team, kind of, so it's just, it's an approach that is respectful of the differences.

Bobbi: 27:58

Does this approach work with grown men? Oh, absolutely.

Kathy: 28:03

Absolutely.

Bobbi: 28:04

Oh my God, this is fascinating, kathy. I just love this because you're right. Who walks around thinking I must have more awareness of my spouse because he's a male? Now what does that mean And how will he react? and how do I need to communicate And how should I approach this? We're pretty much all just operating, as you said right at the beginning, from our own filters and how we're feeling, what we're thinking, what we need right at that very moment. But this is just fascinating, no-transcript. I want to ask you two things. First of all, i want to ask how people find all your resources and slash, or do you do online workshops that allow people from all over the world to join?

Kathy: 28:58

I have done online challenges with a similar version to a workshop and although there are some people come, it's just not the number of steps that I would hope for. And they're free I don't charge anything for them, just to kind of get the message out Now that COVID is over and our restrictions lasted a lot longer in Japan. But I just had my first workshop a few weeks ago and the turnout was beautiful and the response was kind of like everyone kind of kind of obssacked, and so it's kind of so. I have resources, i have courses up the yin and yang. I've been working hard for the last two and a half years. There's a lot of information on the website. I write a blog, not religiously, but you know I keep adding to that blog. I have a membership where you know I have other information for people. So it's I have lots out there if people are interested. But it's really when someone usually hears something and then it's like, oh, i want to know more Absolutely.

Bobbi: 30:17

I just think all this information is so valuable And it's kind of strange when you realize that you haven't really considered something in life and something as big as this, because they make up half or more of our global population. Why aren't we learning more about them? So that's great. On the podcast episode description, i'm going to put any link that you have because I think it's a really valuable resource in this emptiness phase. A lot of us have partners who are male sons, who are male grandsons, whatever, but how great is it when we can learn just a few little tools and techniques for communicating better. I want to thank you so much for coming on today And I do have one question for you, if I may ask. If you had one thing that you wished the world knew about boys, what would it be? What are we not getting about boys?

Kathy: 31:20

I can think of all the beautiful things that they are just as emotionally warm and vulnerable and kind and caring and all of that. I guess if there was just one thing, i would want people to start being really curious and really looking at the way boys are treated. Because if you can start looking at it, you'll see it. If you start listening to some of the media is one whole, one component of it. But if you start listening to some of the very popular songs that often little boys will be singing along because their mom is listening to it on the radio without knowing the words, but some of it is so derogatory about male. So I think if there was one thing, it would be just kind of turn on that detective's lens and start being curious about the world that boys are occupying.

Bobbi: 32:26

Yeah, and I guess the lesson is for me. anyway. my takeaway is to get off autopilot. when I'm in a situation where there are boys, when I'm viewing boys playing, when I'm interacting with them, Step away from my own bias and have a look at what's really going on and see them for who they are and see them for what they need in any given moment. Kathy, thank you so much. It's just been a pleasure And I urge all our listeners if you've got queries or question marks or just want to know more this is a fantastic topic and one that I think should be looked at more closely because they're all around us. So we need to really be just understanding the guys and the little guys in our lives. It's going to better their lives and, at the end of the day, it's going to better ours. So, for everyone listening, thank you so much for connecting today And Kathy, thanks so much.

Kathy: 33:29

Thank you, Barbie. I appreciate being the chance to speak about it.

Bobbi: 33:33

Oh, no problem at all, and for our listeners, we'll connect with you next time on Fly Mum Fly.

Intro: 33:38

From emptiness to personal. Best, let's fly, Mum Fly.