Surviving Narcissism with Helen Snape

Bobbi: 0:30

Hi everyone and welcome back to the Fly Mom Fly podcast, where we explore the incredible journeys of women who have faced and overcome challenges, spreading their wings to sought and new heights. In today's episode, we have the privilege of hosting Helen Snape, who navigated the tumultuous waters of a narcissistic marriage for 18 long years. Through her experiences, helen discovered the profound impact of losing her sense of self and the subsequent journey of self-discovery and healing that followed From unlearning deeply ingrained relationship patterns to developing self-compassion and setting healthy boundaries. Helen's story is one of resilience, growth and empowerment. Be sure not to miss the end of the episode, where Helen will share a free e-book on building healthy boundaries and exciting news about her upcoming book release, drop the Fake Smile the Recovering People Pleasers Guide to Self-Love, boundaries and Healthy Relationships, which is coming out in September. Helen, it is so great to have you here.

Helen: 1:38

Oh my God. Thank you, Bobbi. I'm really excited to be having this conversation with you.

Bobbi: 1:43

Look a very worthwhile conversation, because I know the term narcissistic personality disorder or NPD is thrown around. However, from my own experience, some of us don't realize that we are a magnet for these people, that we are acting in certain ways and believing certain things about ourselves that will have these personality types target us. I am wondering for those who don't really know much about this personality type Helen, can you please share with us what someone with narcissistic personality disorder looks like, speaks like, acts like or is like?

Helen: 2:31

That's a great question, Bobbi, because you're right. Narcissism is on a spectrum, with narcissistic personality disorder being at the extreme end. We're all somewhere on the spectrum, but those that maybe have the mental diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder are the most extreme version. What that looks like is somebody that has an incredibly huge ego, so they think that they are more important than anyone else. They need a lot of attention and approval from other people in order for them to feel okay and to be okay and to function in the world. They don't have any introspection on what's going on for them. They don't ever look inside themselves, which is why it's often almost impossible maybe not impossible, but very hard for them to change, because they don't have that self-insight. Usually, common ways of spotting somebody that's very narcissistic is that they will expect a lot of praise from you. They will expect you to be telling them how amazing they are and that they're right about everything. They will demand respect from you. They will just expect that you respect them, regardless of their behavior, regardless of whether they've earned that respect or not. They will just expect it. They will also demand your time. They will expect you to drop everything for them because they're really important, but they won't have time for you and your problems. For example, you have a friend and they're really narcissistic, then when you have something that's really bad, that's happened in your life, and you're reaching out for support, then not likely to be there for you.

Bobbi: 4:45

So I'd love to know is a narcissist born or made?

Helen: 4:50

Bobbi, that is another good question. Whether a narcissist is born or made, I think that's a debate that we could probably have for hours. From my perspective, a combination of both. I think there is a lot of the nurture side that goes into it, because it is often said that narcissists have had very traumatic or very problematic childhoods. They have built these amazing ego defenses to protect themselves in the future. So this is why they don't do any looking at themselves, because they're so insecure and they're so terrified inside that they've built these amazing ego defenses to create this sense of importance and this false sense of importance and kind of get everyone to validate and approve of them so it doesn't affect their really fragile sense of self in the inside. Now, this doesn't excuse their behavior. It kind of gives you a bit of an understanding of, perhaps, why they're doing what they're doing, which helps, I think, to understand it.

Bobbi: 6:16

Yeah, it really does so from what you're saying. They are just protecting themselves from something traumatic that they may have experienced in life and, unfortunately, they're doing it in a way that may not be the most healthy for themselves and healthy for those around them. My question to you is say, if you had six kids in a family and one is that person and they've all had the same upbringing, how does one person turn out this way and then? Would that then be the case for nature, so to speak, rather than nurture?

Helen: 7:01

Even though you can grow up in the same family with someone, your experience of growing up in that family is gonna be different, and partly that is from, like, your nature yeah, your inborn temperament perhaps, but it's also how you perhaps interpret events and how you develop coping strategies. So we all develop different coping strategies that then become kind of more ingrained patterns, and so some people will develop this perhaps more narcissistic approach to deal with pain and trauma, whereas perhaps somebody else might become more, say, codependent, and they perhaps then end up as an adult that people pleases or fawns, but they do have that ability to self-reflect and to see actually see inside themselves.

Bobbi: 8:10

I love that answer because I am that second person and I have been involved with people who are on the spectrum quite well established on the spectrum, I would say and I thought I had a real handle on being that people pleaser. As a coach, for the last 15 years I have really been practicing self-inventory nonstop. There's a lot of inner work and a lot of self-reflection and it's funny because there's that saying where people say if everywhere you go there's a problem, you're the problem. And this is by no means with everybody, but I seem to be attracting this person and I now see that I was the problem in the fact that I was a people pleaser. I, growing up, didn't really know my place in the world. My self-esteem was quite limited. I was one of eight kids, so I'm kind of lost in the mix and something that I always remember a defining moment. Now we all have these defining moments in our lives and this was how I defined it, not how it was meant, but when I was about six or seven we were at a big gathering and someone told me to stop showing off and I was just being my playful self, just a bit silly, as young people are, but it's always stuck in my mind. So, from that moment on, there was a level of humiliation and embarrassment involved in that, and so I believe that I created this idea that, oh gosh, I better be quiet, I better tow the line, I better do this, I better do that. So I have been the problem, and last 15 years when I've been involved in human behavior, I really thought I had a handle on it. However, it is only recently that I thought hang on, I'm still displaying these tendencies, I'm still towing the line, not saying the wrong thing, not calling someone out on their behavior, even when it was hurting people close to me because I was afraid of retribution. I thought these people had more power than I did, but it's not the case. So I fall into that second category. Do you come across a lot of people-pleasers?

Helen: 11:05

I do. Most of the women that I work with would probably describe themselves as people-pleasers or over-givers in relationships. I always say to them be kind to yourself, because people-pleasing is a coping mechanism. It's a survival response. It's really useful. It's just when we use it all the time, then it becomes maladaptive.

Bobbi: 11:37

Which leads me to the question how would we recognize that we're doing too much of that? Are there any specific signs that we could look for?

Helen: 11:47

We can tell when we're using people-pleasing too much, when we find ourselves feeling resentful, when we're doing things out of a sense of obligation, when we find that we just never have time. We never have time for ourselves or to do anything fun, or we don't have time with our family. We're overextending ourselves. Those are some good clues. We notice that we say yes to everything. We can't stop ourselves from saying it. It's become so well-engrained. We can't stop ourselves.

Bobbi: 12:28

I think there's most likely this often imagined fear of what is going to happen if we stop doing it. Now I must say, in my own personal experience, setting a boundary with someone who is way on the spectrum, there's a bit of backlash. Can you explain to listeners, because I don't want anyone to think, okay, well, today I'm going to create a boundary and then be really surprised by the backlash when they are dealing with someone who displays this behavior? Are you able to tell us a little bit about what we should expect? I mean, obviously every situation is different, so it'll be a different scenario, but I don't want to give anyone a false impression that creating a boundary may not have consequences.

Helen: 13:21

Yeah, when we set a boundary with someone, first of all it's remembering. It's about us taking care of ourselves. We can't expect that the other person is going to change. But you're right, their reaction is their reaction. Again, we don't get to control how somebody reacts when we set a boundary with them. An emotionally healthy person is probably going to accept your boundary with grace. They'll be pleased that you told them. But somebody that doesn't like the sound of your boundary or they're emotionally immature or they're a narcissist they are not going to like you telling them a boundary. They might react, for example, with defensiveness. They might even give you the silent treatment as an extreme way of punishing you for daring to set a boundary. Or they might get really angry or upset in the hope that you'll climb back down, that you'll give in. You'll be like, oh no, no, don't worry, I didn't really mean it. So they might well use these reactions to get you to rescind your boundary. So it's your job in those moments to remember why you're setting a boundary and remember the purpose of it and that it's for you and that you do not give in. You hold on to your boundary.

Bobbi: 15:04

I have noticed another trait will be that they will target those closest to you in your inner circle in order to create doubt about or around those people trusting you and trusting in your relationship and trusting in your friendship. That can be a little bit of a difficult one to manage. However, I guess if you do have strong relationships to begin with, those people are going to see it for what it is.

Helen: 15:39

Indeed, yes. So one thing that narcissists often do is they get jealous of your relationships with other people. So they may well so discord between you and other people because they don't want you to spend time with other people. Or if you're perhaps calling the narcissist out on their behavior and you're no longer one of their fans, you're no longer kind of feeding their ego, then they're not going to like that, and so if they can't control you anymore, then they're going to control how others see you.

Bobbi: 16:21

Can you explain the term of gaslighting to those that may not be too familiar with it, because this is another tactic that they employ to bring doubt to what you believe about your self-life and others.

Helen: 17:02

Gaslighting is a term from a film about gas, where they actually did light gas lamps and the guy he started turning down the gas lamps but he kept denying that he was doing it. So it was basically a way of denying somebody their own reality. So you can look out at the sky and say it's blue, and then the narcissist will say no, it's not pink, because it's denying your reality. And they will do it in a variety of different ways. It's about them chipping away at your sense of yourself and your own reality. So, for example, they might just deny things. So, for example, if you'd had a conversation about going on holiday together to Italy or something, and then a couple of weeks later you talked to them about it, they might just say, well, no, we never talked about that. And you can often tell, actually, if you're being gaslit, because you will feel confused and you will feel like you are going crazy.

Bobbi: 18:18

And it's interesting because it's happened to me when I have had empirical data in front of me to suggest otherwise. That's scary in the sense that I'm not afraid for me, I'm a little bit concerned for the other party that something that is in front of both of us is not acknowledged. That's really concerning.

Helen: 18:50

This is why narcissists have trouble having meaningful relationships with anyone and why we're going to find it difficult to have any kind of a relationship with a narcissist, because, yeah, they can't place the truth.

Bobbi: 19:05

Yeah, Someone shared an analogy Sorry, not an analogy An acronym with me the other day the deep acronym. The deep stands for don't defend, don't engage, don't explain and don't personalize, and I kind of like that because it really is helpful when you're starting to, as you said, have a little bit confusion about what on earth is going on. Hang on, this is sounding a little bit weird, unhealthy, confusing. Go back to that deep acronym and that may help you navigate through that conversation or that association.

Helen: 19:47

Yeah, yeah, I particularly like you know, don't explain, or at least don't over explain, because again, that can be a tactic. You know, if you're setting a boundary, that somebody just tries to pick it apart. They're like well, you know, well why, you know, tell me more, tell me why. But they're not asking to understand that, asking so that they can try and pick holes in your boundary.

Bobbi: 20:14

Yeah, that's so true. Can we go now to your own experience? You had a marriage that unfortunately involved this. Are you able to share some of your story with our listeners, Helen?

Helen: 20:28

Yes. So I met my husband when I was at university. Though I was young and naive and I was I had that fantasy of you know meeting Mr Wright and you know falling in love and everything would be great, and basically I just fell for the first guy that gave me a huge amount of attention. I now know that that was love bombing. So this is when somebody gives you an excessive amount of attention Given, like when we first met. You know, he was like buying me flowers, he was writing me letters, he was telling me like how special our relationship was very early on, and at the time I just thought, oh, this is amazing. I met such an amazing guy and he was so charming and he did all these nice things for me and I just latched it up and I believed it all and I ignored the red flags that were there. Now, there aren't always obvious red flags to begin with, actually. So for some people, you know, they get sucked in by a narcissist with the love bombing and all the charm, and then it's not until their relationship is established that the narcissist kind of turns off the charm and starts to really wear that person down. In my case, there were red flags, but I didn't appreciate what they were. You know, I felt sorry for my husband because I knew that he had had a really bad childhood, and so I excused his poor behavior, which included flying into the most incredible rages that I've ever witnessed, and I just did not know how to process them or what to do. Or, yeah, what I should have been doing was running in the opposite direction. But you know, I was young and I was in love and that empathic part inside of me, I think unconsciously, there was that desire to oh, you know, maybe I can help him, no, maybe I can give him the love that he didn't have when he was growing up, and then maybe he'll be a happier and nicer person. I don't think the good times were really, really good. No, I think it was more, more a sense of relief that we had moments when things were all right.

Bobbi: 23:21

Did this experience act as a catalyst for you to move into the work that you're doing now?

Helen: 23:27

Absolutely yeah, yeah. So I mean, my background is in human resources, but I had the opportunity to retrain as a coach and when I did that I realized I really wanted to help women that were coming from a similar place as me, because when I came out of my marriage, you know, and I started that journey of personal development and self-reflection and I learned about how there are these different drivers in life and one of them is the desire to please other people. As we said, it's not entirely a bad thing. It generally means you're a really loving and caring person and it has its place. It's just when it's become a really ingrained pattern and it's kind of your go-to for every occasion, then it becomes a problem and then you're neglecting yourself and yeah, then we need to work on it.

Bobbi: 24:30

Can I ask you a question? Throughout my experience with dealing with these people Because my confidence has, or was, I should say, shattered quite a bit and my self-esteem pretty much not existent I often wondered with fear oh my goodness, do I have a disorder? Am I the narcissist? What's wrong with me? And I would really, really doubt myself. I've come to think that if I was so worried about it and so paranoid and trying to really be introspective and look at what I was doing, I'm not sure that can be a narcissist. If you're really worried about your behavior.

Helen: 25:15

Spot on, spot on yeah.

Bobbi: 25:18

if you're thinking about oh yeah, am I a problem person and you're not a narcissist, I do believe that those conversations that you've had, that confused you, that belittled you, that made you feel less than it does take a while for them to be eradicated. It could possibly even take years. And it's funny because, as I was writing the book, the Post-Nest Plan the one person who chipped away at me for over 10 years they would always mock the work I was doing. They didn't want to see me in a place of empowerment and strength and as I was writing the book, even years down the track, this person's voice was in my head who do you think you are? You're stupid. Why do you think you can help other people? So I do know that the voice can come back. However, it's what we decide to do with the voice. That's the most important thing, and I push through and I persevered. But speaking of books, you have a free e-book and exciting that you have got your book coming out in September Woo-hoo, because I know exactly where you are at the moment. It is so, so exciting. Can you please share a little bit about each the free e-book that we can have access to and this book coming out soon?

Helen: 26:42

Yes, so the free e-book is available on my website, which is helensnatecom, and then forward slash free and it's called Building Healthy Boundaries an overgivers guide on when to say yes and how to say no in relationship. And I talk a little bit about my own story of realizing that I had no boundaries and the impact it had on my life. And then I take you through steps that I followed and that you can also follow to start to identify and communicate the boundaries that you need in your life too. And I really wrote it as kind of as a hope and inspiration to people that are just at that stage of realizing, oh my God, I don't have any boundaries, where do I begin? And so, yeah, that is my freebie from my website, helensnatecom, and yeah, and then, and then the book the book that's coming out in September and it is called Drop the Faked Smile the Recovering People Pleasers Guide to Self-Love, boundaries and Healthy Relationships, and it is a book to take you on a gentle journey of how to break free of people pleasing patterns and begin this journey of having healthier relationships, starting with a relationship with yourself, and, of course, it has to include developing healthy boundaries in there too.

Bobbi: 28:13

OK, fantastic, so it's out in the next couple of months. So if people keep an eye on helensnatecom, you'll be providing announcements and where to grab the book. Perfect, look, I'm going to put myself down for both of those and I will definitely be sharing the link to your website and to the free ebook. I think so many of us need to have a read and fully understand not only ourselves but others as well, so we can stop the self bashing that there's something wrong with us, because you know what? Maybe we don't have to change anything except our self belief. That's beautifully said. Well, I appreciate you coming on today because it started to feel uncomfortable inside in that GPS, that life GPS that we carry inside. I thought, hang on a minute, something's not right here. I am still in this phase and if I'm still attracting that, there's probably a whole bunch of women out there who are acting in the same way, maybe have had or still have a limited amount of self belief and maybe have been under the coercion and control of someone else who is making them feel less than, and I know that going to your site and grabbing a free ebook and then grabbing the new book in September is really going to be so helpful to so many. So, helen, I just want to thank you so much for joining us today.

Helen: 29:47

Oh, thank you for having me, bobby, I've really loved the conversation.

Bobbi: 29:51

Me too, and thanks for all the expert insights and to all our listeners. Thank you so much and we look forward to connecting with you next time on Fly Mum Fly.