"I've Met Someone". Three words that changed Vanessa Cardenas' life.

Bobbi:
Welcome to Fly Mom Fly, where we honor the resilience of mothers in the empty nest phase. Today, we're joined by Vanessa Cardenas. From navigating a devastating betrayal to empowering others in their healing journey, Vanessa embodies resilience and transformation. A trusted advisor, certified coach, and meditation instructor. Vanessa provides a unique blend of professional knowledge and personal experience. She guides individuals healing from betrayal, especially those navigating the emptiness transition and often challenging and critical period. Vanessa, hello.

Vanessa Cardenas:
Hello, thank you so much, Bobby. So appreciate the opportunity to share all this wisdom with your audience, because this is a transition. When we go from being parents, and not to say that we're not parents anymore, but when we go from allowing them to leave, and I say allow, because some of us hold on for dear life as long as we possibly can. But as they move on, our relationships... evolve as well.

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
And they change not only with our suddenly adult children, but also with our spouse. And that's kind of where I come into play a lot, is that during that transitional stage, there comes up certain things. First off, if there was a betrayal early on within the relationship, and both agreed to stay together for the sake of the children, Well, wait a second. Now that circumstances has changed because

Bobbi:
Exactly.

Vanessa Cardenas:
the children have moved out. And suddenly both partners look at each other and either A, they decide to stay together because a duration of time has happened and they have healed and they're feeling pretty good or the betrayal rears its ugly head and suddenly it's front and center all over again. even if it was a decade ago, because it never got healed properly.

Bobbi:
I get

Vanessa Cardenas:
So

Bobbi:
that. There

Vanessa Cardenas:
yeah,

Bobbi:
is

Vanessa Cardenas:
that's

Bobbi:
a lot

Vanessa Cardenas:
kind

Bobbi:
of,

Vanessa Cardenas:
of.

Bobbi:
yeah, there's a lot to unpack here today and it's a little bit triggering only in the sense that I've been through it. And my now husband is divorced and I was divorced. And it's interesting because our experience was quite different. He... took his ex-wife out to dinner, they sat down, they had a conversation, they talked things through, and then they realized that they weren't meant to be with each other anymore. It's always going to be hard and traumatic and devastating, but boy, in my instance where the shock comes from betrayal, it's not sitting you down and letting you know where my feelings are and I respect you enough to have this conversation before I move on. boy, that is a truly life defining moment. And I would like to hear about your experience. I was gonna say, I would love to hear about it. I wanna hear about it because I know you've done so much with that personal pain. That's why I'm looking forward to hearing about your experience. Obviously you never want anyone to go through this. However, you have so blossomed into... someone sitting here in front of me and when we're off air I was asking you about your look because it's so cool and it's so powerful. You just come across as a powerful woman and I really would love to dive into your personal story if I may just to begin with so you can let listeners know that yeah I'm not just coaching and assisting people going through this I have lived this and you're getting the real deal.

Vanessa Cardenas:
Yes, very, very much so. And it's an interesting story. I have an epic love story. I met my husband in middle school, and

Bobbi:
Right.

Vanessa Cardenas:
he noticed me first, type of thing. We were in, and I know it's cliche, we were in band class together, and he noticed me. I didn't notice him at all,

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
not at all, but he noticed me. And he pursued me, and we started dating like teenagers do, but we fell madly deeply, fully. in love

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
and he was it, he was my everything. And then he screwed up, as boys do at that age, and we broke up because I was going to be firm and fierce and you know, type of thing. And he pursued me for eight more years. And it

Bobbi:
Wow.

Vanessa Cardenas:
was very, very interesting because when I finally relented and said, okay, we can go out on a date, nine weeks later we were married.

Bobbi:
Holy moly!

Vanessa Cardenas:
What? Because when you know, you know.

Bobbi:
Yeah?

Vanessa Cardenas:
And we didn't want the big wedding and all that other kind of nonsense. We just wanted to be together.

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
We were so grateful to find each other again that we just wanted to be together. And we fell into marriage. Yeah, there were issues. Money, money was a big issue, you know, type of thing. And life, you know, we were young. We were 21 and 22,

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
but we jumped in. We just jumped in both feet. And that's how we have kind of operated our whole lives. We've always done that.

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
So, you know, we did everything. You know, I became the C-suite executive that I always wanted to be. And he became the stay at home dad when it wasn't fashionable to do so. And

Bobbi:
on

Vanessa Cardenas:
we

Bobbi:
it.

Vanessa Cardenas:
raised two children and we had the house and the cars and everything else. And one day he and I are walking through Central Park because I'm out of New York. And he sits me down on a bench and he goes, And I turned to look at him because I was people watching and he says, three words, never forget it. I've met someone.

Bobbi:
Oh god.

Vanessa Cardenas:
My whole world chattered in a complete instant. I completely fell apart, completely. I was a zombie for weeks. I just couldn't comprehend what was going on. And I was in a state of shock. I was numb. I grabbed every single resource that I could get my hands on. Anybody that could talk to me, any therapist, coach, anybody that could talk to me to help me through this, I gravitated to. I latched onto them. I was like, please help me, fix me, save me. And

Bobbi:
you.

Vanessa Cardenas:
I, yeah,

Bobbi:
Oh

Vanessa Cardenas:
fix

Bobbi:
yikes.

Vanessa Cardenas:
me,

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
fix me, you

Bobbi:
Can

Vanessa Cardenas:
know.

Bobbi:
I ask you did you go to these professionals with the aim of trying to win him back for want of a better term? Did you want that marriage to continue or was this purely just for yourself so you could cope in this shocking situation? Right.

Vanessa Cardenas:
Everything. I had so many questions. There were so many questions. But the thing that I remember most is that my husband and I, because my husband was committed to making it work, his comment, I've met someone, was a cry for help. Like

Bobbi:
I knew.

Vanessa Cardenas:
you need to pay attention to me. I'm starting to lose it. And I attracted another woman who is into me and it felt really good, you know, suddenly

Bobbi:
Yeah,

Vanessa Cardenas:
attention to me

Bobbi:
right.

Vanessa Cardenas:
in a way that is intoxicating. And it's the same intoxication that you and I had back in middle school and then back when we got back together. And it fades over time. Why? Because we become management, you know, household management. We handle our household and, you know, where do the kids need to be and where do, you know,

Bobbi:
Oh,

Vanessa Cardenas:
and everything else.

Bobbi:
yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
And life became complacent. and common. And I don't want to say that we lost the spark, but to him, we lost the spark.

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
And I didn't realize that and I didn't recognize that. So I recall very strongly, we were in marriage counseling because I insisted on it.

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
And I remember screaming, screaming at our therapist saying, there has to be a reason I'm going through this. There has to be a reason. that I am going through this. You can explain it to me logically. You can explain it to me emotionally, but they're not connecting. I'm disconnected. I need to know the reason why I'm going through this.

Bobbi:
Right.

Vanessa Cardenas:
And I begged and I pleaded, and I remember every single night just, please, can I sleep? Please, if I could stop suffering for one less day, I promise. that I will help somebody else. And I made that commitment to myself and to any higher power, please just make me stop suffering. And it clicked. And I realized, wait a second, I am absorbing so much information because that's my background. I have a degree in industrial psychology and I've been a C-suite executive for over 20 years. And I

Bobbi:
Bye.

Vanessa Cardenas:
mentor and coach other people. And I've done

Bobbi:
Okay.

Vanessa Cardenas:
so professionally, you know, in their professional career for my employees.

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
And I've also done it personally as they were going through grief and loss and divorce and things of that nature. I didn't realize that in my own betrayal, I was starting to take in that information in order to share it with someone else. Because

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
when we learn things, when we're doing things, we do them passively.

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
Think of it like when you're watching television. You're watching television on the couch, watching a program, you get up to go to the bathroom, you get up to go get a snack, and on your way back to the living room, you've forgotten what you've actually been watching because you've been watching it passively. And

Bobbi:
It's

Vanessa Cardenas:
I would like

Bobbi:
also

Vanessa Cardenas:
them to...

Bobbi:
like when you drive somewhere and you think hang on I don't have conscious recollection of the last 10 minutes we're just on that autopilot.

Vanessa Cardenas:
Exactly, very much so. And I realized I did not want to be on autopilot.

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
I wanted to take in this information as holistically as I could to heal myself, but because I made a promise to myself and to a higher power that if I could heal, I would share it with others. And that became my mission. I started to really embrace all of the greats because I wanted to take it in. so that I could heal myself and then subsequently help someone else heal. And I've had such the honor and privilege of doing that for hundreds of clients. It just, it fills my heart in such a way that nothing else I've ever done in my career has. And I'm so grateful. And I say that to people, I'm grateful for the betrayal. And they're like, what are you talking about? And I'm like, it was the necessary shove that I needed. to step into myself

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
because I love who I am. I am so grateful. And you commented on my hair. And for the listeners that are listening and not seeing me, I was before the betrayal, I had hair halfway down my back. It was salt and pepper and I had bangs. And that was my hairstyle for decades. With the first betrayal, the I've met someone, I chopped my hair off. I stood in my bathroom mirror. I grabbed a hold of my hair

Bobbi:
Oh, you did it

Vanessa Cardenas:
and

Bobbi:
yourself?

Vanessa Cardenas:
I took a hair scissor. I did it myself.

Bobbi:
Wow.

Vanessa Cardenas:
I cut my hair off. Why? Because I could be in control of it.

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
And it was something that my husband loved. He loved my hair and I was like, mm, no, grabbed a hold of it into a ponytail and sliced it right off. That was drastic.

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
Then the next discovery of something, I then shaved off one side of it. That was drastic. Then I shaved off the other side with another discovery. Then I dyed it all one color, getting rid of the gray, which by the way was hard earned. And now if you see me on screen, you see that the gray is starting to come back in because it's earned. And then I put in the pink. Yes, I have a pink streak in my hair. I am a C-suite executive that walks into board meetings and I have pink hair. So, thank you.

Bobbi:
you look fabulous. My question is you did all that work embracing techniques to heal yourself and you worked through that. What happened with your marriage? Did you stay together for a time or did it end? What was happening after you were able to do that in a work on yourself?

Vanessa Cardenas:
When I did that inner work on myself, and keep in mind that my husband did the work as well, he was willing to do the work necessary to help heal our relationship as well, because that wasn't the only discovery that came out within the situation as we started to explore what exactly is going on, what would prompt you to say that, what has happened in the past that maybe is starting to come up and so forth. So. We work both very, very hard individually as well as collectively, and we are still married.

Bobbi:
Done, I was going to say, for him to do so much work, put so much effort into you and also let you know that he has been in contact, I guess, I don't know the details, with another woman, but that cry for help and then to step up and say that and then to join you in repairing your relationship, not relying just on himself to do it, not relying just on you to do it, that collaboratively you did it together. Oh, that gives me such hope. That gives me such hope. So well done. And now you're helping other people.

Vanessa Cardenas:
Correct, correct. And it's interesting because when we were going through the betrayal, no one knew about it. My colleagues didn't know about it. The only people that knew were my children. That was it. No family, no friends, because I didn't want to let the toothpaste out of the tube. Because once you do so, there's a lot of judgment

Bobbi:
There

Vanessa Cardenas:
from

Bobbi:
is.

Vanessa Cardenas:
everybody else. And

Bobbi:
And it's

Vanessa Cardenas:
I

Bobbi:
hard

Vanessa Cardenas:
didn't

Bobbi:
taking.

Vanessa Cardenas:
need, yeah,

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
exactly. I didn't need to hear that judgment. Now... based on what I do, everybody knows about it. So people are approaching me because I've written two books already, and they'll approach me and be like, really, this actually happened? And I'm like, yeah,

Bobbi:
Yeah,

Vanessa Cardenas:
wow.

Bobbi:
and now you're the walking, talking advertisement for what you do. It's like, yeah, this happened to me. I'll share it with you and we're still happily married.

Vanessa Cardenas:
Correct,

Bobbi:
Wow, that's

Vanessa Cardenas:
correct.

Bobbi:
amazing.

Vanessa Cardenas:
Yeah, and I love when other people introduce me. For example, I went to a gallery showing one time with my husband and

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
the woman whose gallery it was knew me and knew my story.

Bobbi:
Yes.

Vanessa Cardenas:
And she runs up to me and we're standing next to a couple and she's like, Vanessa, oh my gosh, you're here. That's great. And she turns to the other couple and she's like, do you know what she does? She helps people who have been betrayed because she was betrayed. Meanwhile, my husband's standing right next to me and stuff. So they look at me, they then look

Bobbi:
Oh,

Vanessa Cardenas:
at

Bobbi:
no!

Vanessa Cardenas:
my husband, they look back at me, they look at my husband again

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
and he nods and he goes, yeah, I fucked up. Yeah,

Bobbi:
Oh

Vanessa Cardenas:
I

Bobbi:
my

Vanessa Cardenas:
did.

Bobbi:
God.

Vanessa Cardenas:
Look at her.

Bobbi:
Yes.

Vanessa Cardenas:
Look what she's doing.

Bobbi:
And how many children do you have?

Vanessa Cardenas:
We have two.

Bobbi:
Okay. And what have they learned throughout this experience? You said you did share it with them. They saw you betrayed. They saw you in shock. They saw you in repair mode. And then they saw the outcome. So how has it affected them? How old are they now? And how has it had- Sorry, I'll say that again. How has it affected their approach to relationships?

Vanessa Cardenas:
Great question. Great, great question. Need to step back just one step.

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
When the betrayal happened, the first betrayal, I immediately took off my wedding bands and I was like, yeah, I'm done, I'm

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
done. There's no repair. And my husband just was like, oh, no, no. We need to do something about this. I'm not going to just allow this to dissolve and stuff. But we went home and we shared it with my children because I was insistent that he say what he did.

Bobbi:
Right.

Vanessa Cardenas:
and that he tells that honesty. It's always been about honesty within

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
the family. My daughter was 16, 15, 16

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
at the time, and my son was 17 at the

Bobbi:
Right,

Vanessa Cardenas:
time.

Bobbi:
right.

Vanessa Cardenas:
They handled it very differently. My son ghosted his father, my husband. Six months, he looked right through him as if he did not exist.

Bobbi:
Wow, the poor

Vanessa Cardenas:
And that

Bobbi:
boy.

Vanessa Cardenas:
was really tough on my husband. My daughter, on the other hand, was very forgiving. and wanted just to keep the peace in the house. I mean, she was very much an anchor for me, which in hindsight, now that I know so much,

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
was a little too much for her at her age to go through. How it affects their relationships is a very positive one because now they see things as they are, not how they wish them to be.

Bobbi:
Oh, I

Vanessa Cardenas:
And

Bobbi:
like

Vanessa Cardenas:
that's

Bobbi:
that.

Vanessa Cardenas:
a very different. approach to things. They don't have rose-colored glasses on,

Bobbi:
Raj.

Vanessa Cardenas:
but they also understand the power of forgiveness.

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
My daughter also understands the power of owning your story. Step into it, even if you are embarrassed, even if you are shameful, even if you feel guilt, you need to step into that story because your story is powerful. Why? It becomes the survival guide for someone else.

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
someone else hears your truth, what you did, even if you're embarrassed by it, they know either A, to do the exact same thing or to do the complete opposite.

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
But they wouldn't know that if you don't share your story.

Bobbi:
Yeah, that's so true. So the people who come to see you, are they couples or individuals?

Vanessa Cardenas:
It's usually individuals,

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
couples is a little different. I usually recommend for couples to go into couples counseling

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
or therapy because there is a difference and I tend to stay in my lane. There's a difference between coaching and therapy.

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
Therapy is very diagnostic and they also dig through your past. They look for patterns and things of that nature and I completely respect that.

Bobbi:
Okay.

Vanessa Cardenas:
My role and the way I see my role is we... dabble, we touch on the past just for context.

Bobbi:
Yes.

Vanessa Cardenas:
What we're working on here and now and the future. And that's my role. Yes, how you feel throughout this, yeah, it's okay not to be okay. I know exactly how that feels. I know how it feels to have that range of emotions that flip on a dime instantaneously, completely understand that.

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
But then there are strategies and techniques that you can use to settle yourself down. I still use them. I am so many years removed, but I can still get a trigger. There can still be something that pops.

Bobbi:
Yes.

Vanessa Cardenas:
And I'll be like, ooh, I need

Bobbi:
So

Vanessa Cardenas:
to take a moment.

Bobbi:
what are the signs that let you know that someone shouldn't be saving their marriage?

Vanessa Cardenas:
Ooh, that's a loaded question.

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
That's a very loaded question.

Bobbi:
In your opinion.

Vanessa Cardenas:
Yeah, no, it's a good question, but it's a very loaded question. Every single relationship is very unique. And even what is shared with me might not necessarily be the whole truth.

Bobbi:
Yes.

Vanessa Cardenas:
And a lot of times things get held back,

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
embarrassed, shameful,

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
unsure. I help. clients through a series of questions, a series of exercises, to really think about their marriage, regardless of what they disclose to me, because they

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
know in their heart and their head what the truth is. So we go through a series of questions to make them think about

Bobbi:
Okay.

Vanessa Cardenas:
what's going on. For example, one very, very powerful question is, if you were relieving If you were leaving your relationship, what would you lovingly leave behind?

Bobbi:
Right.

Vanessa Cardenas:
And that becomes a very powerful question of what do I wanna leave? Because you are going to leave something behind. And are you ready to leave that behind? And are you actually seeing your relationship exactly for what it is? Have you taken off those rose colored glasses? Do you see potential for change? And that's one that always comes up. with a lot of clients is, oh, he has the potential to change. No, no, it's not about potential to change. Does he have the willingness to change? There's a difference between potential and willingness.

Bobbi:
Does one sex cheat more than the other or?

Vanessa Cardenas:
Hmm.

Bobbi:
Is that a

Vanessa Cardenas:
That,

Bobbi:
question that cannot be answered?

Vanessa Cardenas:
it's a tough question to answer.

Bobbi:
and then.

Vanessa Cardenas:
There is a wonderful website, name escapes me,

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
but I will get that over to you.

Bobbi:
Thank

Vanessa Cardenas:
They have

Bobbi:
you.

Vanessa Cardenas:
been doing studies for over a decade and they allow for anonymous completion of a survey that

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
talks about bleeding.

Bobbi:
Raj.

Vanessa Cardenas:
And it's very interesting because over the course of 10 years, they see that men and women used to be more men than women. But now it's getting a little bit more even. Why? There's a lot of circumstances to it. There's an age demographic as well

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
in terms of who cheats more often than not. There's a lot of different variables to it. The most interesting statistic that I found in this study was that men... tend to cheat with somebody that he doesn't know or that his wife doesn't know.

Bobbi:
Right.

Vanessa Cardenas:
Usually only 20% of the time that cheating is involved, both parties know the other person.

Bobbi:
Right.

Vanessa Cardenas:
That's when men cheat.

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
When women cheat, it's more than twice. It's over 40% that she cheats with somebody that both the husband and the wife know.

Bobbi:
That's

Vanessa Cardenas:
Now

Bobbi:
interesting.

Vanessa Cardenas:
that, yeah, that's very interesting because that means for men, you need to pay attention to the men you have around you because

Bobbi:
Mmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
they're watching your wife. And if they pay attention to your wife and one of the reasons that she cheats, because there's a variety of reasons that a woman cheats,

Bobbi:
Mm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
but one of them is lack of intimacy, lack of being seen or heard.

Bobbi:
The female,

Vanessa Cardenas:
And your

Bobbi:
okay.

Vanessa Cardenas:
friend, your colleague, somebody that you know pays attention

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
to your wife. Ah, and she's missed that? Yeah.

Bobbi:
And what about for men? What is the common reason you come across? Is it, see, I thought being appreciated and heard and acknowledged would have been the men's reason. Is it similar, but maybe has a different take? Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
It's a little different. It's more ego.

Bobbi:
Right.

Vanessa Cardenas:
It's like, oh, I can get that

Bobbi:
I

Vanessa Cardenas:
type

Bobbi:
think.

Vanessa Cardenas:
of thing. You know,

Bobbi:
I think.

Vanessa Cardenas:
you think of it like, you know, it's funny that men see things very differently than women. You know, men will go to the barber shop and there will be a female cutting hair. And she runs her fingers through his

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
hair. And she leans over and suddenly she has her cleavage in his face

Bobbi:
Right.

Vanessa Cardenas:
and everything else. And she's like, oh, but you have such thick hair. luscious hair and this and that. And she's complimenting him and stuff. And he thinks he's got game,

Bobbi:
Various.

Vanessa Cardenas:
you know? Meanwhile,

Bobbi:
Yes.

Vanessa Cardenas:
she's doing it all for the tip. Come on, you know?

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
Women see that. Yeah, you're laying it on a little thick there. But

Bobbi:
Oh,

Vanessa Cardenas:
for men, oh my God,

Bobbi:
yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
they love that.

Bobbi:
They make

Vanessa Cardenas:
And

Bobbi:
it

Vanessa Cardenas:
then,

Bobbi:
personally.

Vanessa Cardenas:
yes, absolutely. You know, where women, a lot of women don't even pick up that a man's actually flirting with them, you

Bobbi:
Mm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
know? whoo, their little antennas go up and they're like, you know, type of thing.

Bobbi:
Yeah,

Vanessa Cardenas:
So yeah.

Bobbi:
do you see a lot of empty nest men or women who perhaps have strayed because they don't know each other in this phase of life? Because we're all vastly different people than when, before we had kids, I mean we certainly change. Do you see a lot of this phase of life?

Vanessa Cardenas:
Yes, yes,

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
yeah, it's very prevalent at this stage because you're not tethered to your children anymore

Bobbi:
Roch.

Vanessa Cardenas:
and suddenly you feel that freedom of like, oh, I don't have to drive the kids to soccer practice and this and that and suddenly the whole world opens up and for some they feel that there's less time in front of them than behind them

Bobbi:
Right.

Vanessa Cardenas:
and they suddenly feel that pressure and if There is a lack of communication. Communication is the key to

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
everything. Everything in life involves being able to use your words. We tell it to children all the time, use your words, use your words. Well, we need to say that to each other. Use your words. Talk to me. I can't read your mind. Even though we've been married for 25 years. I'm sorry, I don't know what you're thinking and you don't want me thinking for you. Because if I think for you, I'm gonna guess it wrong. And I'm going to then ruminate it in my own head, what I think you're thinking. It's easier just to tell me what you're thinking and we

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
go from there.

Bobbi:
And it's funny, yesterday I was interviewing a woman who works with parents on raising boys and men and she was talking about the different ways we need to communicate with the different sexes because we can't just assume that our partner is hearing us and understanding us just because we're speaking to them. And I found that fascinating. And I was talking to my husband about that last night and he was going, okay, yes, that is direct, but it sounds a little bit ill-mannered or a little bit off. So how about you say it this way? And we were having this discussion about the right way or a useful way to be direct, for me to be direct with him. Because normally I'll just tell a story before I get to my point. So I think he falls asleep halfway through my question or statement. But yeah, look, it's interesting. And I noticed on your website, you have a free quick course where

Vanessa Cardenas:
Mm-hmm.

Bobbi:
people can gain clarity and understanding on their current situation.

Vanessa Cardenas:
Correct.

Bobbi:
Yeah, so.

Vanessa Cardenas:
It's right at the discovery point. You know, certain tips that you need to think about. Again, because right at the moment of discovery, you're just lost. You just are.

Bobbi:
Okay.

Vanessa Cardenas:
And that's fine. It's to be expected. But

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
you need some guidance of, okay, what are the next steps? Because a lot of people come to me three, four, five days. Should I stay or should I go? Wait a second. You're five days removed from just finding out. Unless your safety is a concern,

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
are you really going to make a informed decision in the state that you feel that you're in? No, you can't do that. You can't, you have to allow yourself to process what is going on.

Bobbi:
How challenging is it to have trust in a relationship once betrayal has been present? And I'm talking

Vanessa Cardenas:
mmm

Bobbi:
from my own experience. It was, I wasn't sat down on a park bench and told that there was an issue. I actually uncovered it myself. It was, I uncovered it myself twice because I went back for more. You know.

Vanessa Cardenas:
Okay.

Bobbi:
I was too scared to move on at the time. It was pretty bad but my core need for safety, security and comfort was right there and I was like no, better the devil you know, let's stay there. Yeah but this trust thing, I personally found it hard. However, there wasn't, as in your case, there wasn't someone willing to do the work and just really all in on making things better. So I'm assuming that that's where the whole idea of trust can be brought back into the relationship.

Vanessa Cardenas:
Yes, but first you need to trust yourself. Regardless of the outcome of the relationship, you have to trust yourself first because

Bobbi:
Would that

Vanessa Cardenas:
you

Bobbi:
be.

Vanessa Cardenas:
do not trust yourself. Your reality has completely pivoted and

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
you're like, wait a second, and now you start thinking of everything else. And in your case, you started going further and further back

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
trying to find clues and finding more material.

Bobbi:
Yes.

Vanessa Cardenas:
You know. Did it ease your mind finding more?

Bobbi:
Oh, it was horrible. It

Vanessa Cardenas:
Yeah.

Bobbi:
was horrible. Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
Right. You know, sometimes we do need to let things lie. You know, some advocate for knowing everything, every little nuance and everything else. I mean, how much hurt are we supposed to take on? How many cuts are we supposed to endure?

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
I mean, betrayal is betrayal. You know, whether you have, you know, for me it was just one big, uh, kind

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
of thing. Yes, I had more discoveries, but it didn't... diminish the first initial gut wrenching, you know, stabbed to the heart. You know, the other ones, yeah, they were flesh wounds is what I call them. I had a lot of them, but

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
they were flesh wounds. It was the one right in the center of my chest. That was the one that I needed to work on. And more so than being able to trust him, I needed to trust myself. I

Bobbi:
Mm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
needed to know that I could actually see what I was seeing, that I wasn't twisting it in some way, either negative or positive,

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
that I was actually seeing it for exactly what it was. So the question of trust, you have to trust yourself first. You have to get to a point where you can trust yourself first before you can start trusting somebody else brick by brick, layer by layer. It is an incremental process in order to trust somebody again. You just don't give that away all over again. No, it doesn't work. way. Not

Bobbi:
No.

Vanessa Cardenas:
at all. It took you a while to be able to trust yourself. You're not going to then suddenly turn around and be like, oh yeah, I trust you. No, no, no.

Bobbi:
It's funny, it did take a while. It took about three years until I realized I had been attracting exactly the same person. And someone said to me, a coach back in Sydney said, you are the problem. And

Vanessa Cardenas:
Mm-hmm.

Bobbi:
I, when I had sessions with this coach, a guy, I would often want to hug him or punch his lights out because he

Vanessa Cardenas:
Exactly.

Bobbi:
was so

Vanessa Cardenas:
Mm-hmm.

Bobbi:
honest and he said to me, it's you, you're the problem. and I hated him once again. I was on the phone and I said, what do you mean? He said, find the key, find the key as to why you are attracting the same sort of person. And for probably about three weeks, I did a lot of automatic writing, I did a lot of soul searching. I realized that everything I didn't like about the people that I had attracted was something that I had a belief around even before they came into my existence. So I ditched all of that and then I thought, hey, I actually like myself for the first time in my life and I'm just gonna cruise, I'm with my girls, we're living in a coastal town, life is great. And so for six months, I just really was settled. And then because I wasn't searching and because I was quite comfortable with myself, Frank came along and he was the best decision I've ever made. So. There is hope, that's for sure. And for anyone who is in this situation and they need to find that hope and that clarity and just a space where they can get away from their emotion and have someone who's gonna ask them those questions that allow them to think about their future path. It's all on the website, is it? Is that understoodinear.com?

Vanessa Cardenas:
Yes, absolutely.

Bobbi:
Fantastic. And I... would like to know, I'm hoping that you're all over social media so our listeners can connect with you as well.

Vanessa Cardenas:
Yes, absolutely, very, very much so. Daily on Instagram, which I love. I

Bobbi:
Yes.

Vanessa Cardenas:
love Instagram.

Bobbi:
No

Vanessa Cardenas:
Oh

Bobbi:
fight.

Vanessa Cardenas:
my goodness. Yeah, that was an interesting revelation that I had because I stayed off of social media. I mean, I followed it for my children, but other

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
than that, I didn't really pay much attention to it

Bobbi:
Right.

Vanessa Cardenas:
and stuff. But oh, love Instagram. Oh, it's a great outlet to be able to share wisdom, you know, day by day because... When you're in the throes of betrayal, you can't take on a lot of information. Why? Because you're past this flooding in,

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
you know, and it's really hard to pay attention to everything. So I do want to ask a question about Frank, if I could.

Bobbi:
Oh yes, I love questions. Yeah. Okay. Ask away.

Vanessa Cardenas:
Yes, and maybe you'll ask him this evening that

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
what attracted you to him was your confidence. Six months you built up your confidence that you

Bobbi:
Really?

Vanessa Cardenas:
were just glowing and he couldn't take his eyes off.

Bobbi:
Well, it's funny because he, we had a blind date and he said that he walked in and he said, within the first five seconds, he said, Frank, leave now or be prepared to never leave. And it's so dramatic. However, and it's interesting Vanessa, that you say that because to see me then and to see, and Frank and I talk about it, how after what we've been together nearly 12 years, how much more confident I am now because I'm with the right person who lifts me up and supports and questions and engages. It's such a different experience but he's a real gem and I know how lucky I am. Absolutely. He's just a great fit for me. So yeah, it's interesting. And it's funny because he has mentioned, and I do too, the more we go along, the more we love each other. And I think because we're seeing each other really grow in a place of non-judgment that it's always been, you're it already. You know, you can only get better. So

Vanessa Cardenas:
Mm-hmm.

Bobbi:
I do love that. Now I've got one question for you before we go. If

Vanessa Cardenas:
Mm-hmm.

Bobbi:
you had one bit of advice for empty nest mothers, whether they are in this space of experiencing betrayal or just kind of lost with their partner and unsure about what to do, what would that bit of advice be?

Vanessa Cardenas:
Mmm, great question. Very simply,

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
give a compliment, accept a compliment.

Bobbi:
I love it.

Vanessa Cardenas:
Yes, yes, give a compliment, even the slightest thing, but make sure the compliment is wrapped in how you feel. Oh, I love, I feel so much like a princess when you open the door for me.

Bobbi:
Right,

Vanessa Cardenas:
Mmm.

Bobbi:
what does that do when you say how you feel? How does that improve the communication?

Vanessa Cardenas:
Mm, men love to know how women feel. They do.

Bobbi:
Do you, Chloe?

Vanessa Cardenas:
Yes, yes, they do, especially when it's good. Oh,

Bobbi:
Right!

Vanessa Cardenas:
bubble bath feels so good against my skin. They wanna know how you feel in a good way. And they wanna know that they're responsible for making

Bobbi:
Ah,

Vanessa Cardenas:
you

Bobbi:
that's a great

Vanessa Cardenas:
feel that

Bobbi:
tune.

Vanessa Cardenas:
way. So you give a compliment, you take a compliment. He compliments you. And now he says, oh, you look really good in this. This old thing? No, no, don't do that. Oh my God, I pulled this out of the closet. I haven't worn it in so long. Thank you so much for noticing.

Bobbi:
Okay,

Vanessa Cardenas:
It's

Bobbi:
got

Vanessa Cardenas:
all

Bobbi:
it.

Vanessa Cardenas:
in changing how

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
you communicate.

Bobbi:
Perfect. Vanessa, you've been an absolute gem. I have loved this conversation and I wanna

Vanessa Cardenas:
I can't.

Bobbi:
thank you so much for coming on board today.

Vanessa Cardenas:
My honor, my complete honor, Bobby and Frank, thank you

Bobbi:
Thank

Vanessa Cardenas:
so much.

Bobbi:
you.

Vanessa Cardenas:
You show great, great promise to your audience who experiences just life in general and to see a strong and thriving relationship. You mentioned over 12 years now, right?

Bobbi:
Yeah, we

Vanessa Cardenas:
Yeah.

Bobbi:
have our 10th wedding anniversary in January.

Vanessa Cardenas:
Mmm, isn't

Bobbi:
That's

Vanessa Cardenas:
that

Bobbi:
good.

Vanessa Cardenas:
great? Oh,

Bobbi:
It is.

Vanessa Cardenas:
feels so good.

Bobbi:
It

Vanessa Cardenas:
So

Bobbi:
does.

Vanessa Cardenas:
you are a wonderful example as well. And the work that you do here on this podcast,

Bobbi:
Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Cardenas:
recognizing this particular situation, because it is something that a lot of people don't talk about, they kind of come into it like, yay, we're free,

Bobbi:
No,

Vanessa Cardenas:
you

Bobbi:
yeah,

Vanessa Cardenas:
know,

Bobbi:
I

Vanessa Cardenas:
and

Bobbi:
mean

Vanessa Cardenas:
then

Bobbi:
it

Vanessa Cardenas:
they

Bobbi:
is.

Vanessa Cardenas:
suddenly look at each

Bobbi:
Yeah.

Vanessa Cardenas:
other and they realize, whoa.

Bobbi:
Absolutely, absolutely. Well thank you so much. We'll put all your links on the episode description and otherwise it's Friday. You have a brilliant weekend and to all the listeners have a wonderful weekend. Thank you for connecting and we'll touch base again soon.

Vanessa Cardenas:
Absolutely.